This must be why children can be so impulsive.

very spooky stuff!!! it is difficult to grasp that the “operator” is not the “me” that I think is “me”

Even if the brain scans can predict our decisions 7 seconds ahead of time, it doesn't mean that we don't have free will. I don't get it. It is still us making the decision

I guess we can't blame them then!

Anyone who says that God has a plan for us, the reason why we are thrown from one path to the next, even if it hurts us badly and we didn't want to leave that path, would then suggest that we do not have free will whatsoever. You know what i mean, the old cliches such as, “If it was meant to be, it was meant to be” But hang on, I wanted it to be so why is my free will being taken away from me. And the other famous one, “Things happen for a reason” So once again we don't have free will. What reason exactly, to tear my heart out? I think the whole lot is a sham. Law of attraction is absolute nonsense and so is God. Love and relationships are a waste of time and only cause great pain and suffering. Thats right it is about 'love', the universe is about 'love'. Tell that to someone who can never love again because his kids were torn from him without his consent, ie free will. Of course your brain thinks ahead, if it didn't we would walk around like zombies, crashing into each other. For instants, a person didn't think ahead so they had an accident. I am thinking what to write before i write it. Free will is non existent. We are bombarded by hypnotic media control, brainwashing, fancy colours to promote something, people who are ugly, using make up to look like super models. There never was any free will.

I think Marcus' strong belief that consciousness ought to be or is divorced from unconsciousness is what is interesting. The experimenter had a more integrated view of a kind of feed back loop where unconscious processes are influenced by conscious choices and beliefs.

Our brain is a modeling machine and what we may be doing is modeling/prototyping any activity we undertake.

That's why I take peyote. I helps shorten that 7 second gap to between 2.375 and 3.125 seconds. I'm more in touch with my “Sub” and make better decisions.

Combine it with some Chocolate Bliss and I bet you can get it down to 1.26… Nice to hear from you Rob!

I'm curious about two aspects of this study:

#1. It seems the participants are posed the question looooong before the button is pushed, and they are only pushing the button one time. It seems this would give considerable lead time for the brain to “formulate” a decision. What about short, reactionary decisions? How long in advance are those detectable in the brain? I would've liked this study more if they had to push the button multiple times, choosing which hand each time, and with decreasing lag time in between each push.

#2. I don't find this at all disturbing, because like the guy said… your brain is in alignment with your thoughts, feelings, beliefs, ideals… so essentially, you are your brain. And your brain (you) have the free will of decision. Just because we make decisions more quickly in our unconscious and it takes longer for our (not-so-intellegent) conscoious selves to realize our decision, doesn't mean we lack free will.

It is very interesting, but I would like to see more in-depth studies on this theory.

So I'm driving along a road in town I haven't been down for a few months. I

quickly turn the corner (because I know it like the back of my hand) only to

be confronted with the road ahead closed off because of roadworks and the

need to choose an alternative route either left or right. My brain

immediately goes into overdrive choosing the best route – I choose left. I

start the turn and see that way is blocked by a parked van so immediatelty

turn wheel the other way and make the turn scarcely having slowed the car

down and I'm on my way again in less than two seconds – job done. Now I'm

expected to believe that my subconscious chose the best alternative five

seconds before it knew there was a choice to be made and also deliberately

made a wrong choice so that I could continue believing in free will.

I can't help thinking that we are not given the details of the experiment in

this little clip only the conclusions drawn for us by scientists; I think there's plenty of room

here for misinterpretation.

This is a great question. I think the research is good, but it is not covering situations where you do not have 7 seconds to decide. This may be why those situations can be so uncomfortable…

When the van got in your way, you immediately made the decision to turn in the other direction because, yes, your subconscious decided it 7 seconds earlier. What it had actually decided was “I have 3 possible routes. Route 1 is closed, so I choose Route 2 above Route 3. The instant Route 2 was blocked, your subconcious instantly directed you to Route 3 (as part of your mind's 'safety' programming.

However, had you turned on to Route 2 and discovered it blocked, but with a choice of Routes 4 & 5, most likely the 7 second rule would have come into play again.

THE BOTTOM LINE —IS YES— YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS IS DOING THE WORK BEFORE YOU CONSCIOUSLY GET THERE, SUBJECT TO YOUR CURRENT KNOWLEDGE BASE + INCOMING PRECEPTIONS + ABILITIES OUTSIDE NORMAL CONSCIOUSNESS

Wow! What a depressing hopeless post. Please don't confuse predestination with self will. I don't believe that I am predestined to do something or be in a specific situation and completely out of control, i.e., “God's will.” It's true that bad things happen to good people, but in all instances we still have our agency to choose – consciously or otherwise. I’m grateful that my brain is on autopilot most of the time – yet I still believe I set the course.
Love and Trust are two of the most important of human attributes. When they are violated – it hurts! One chooses to never love again. One chooses to avoid relationships. One chooses their life’s path to a great extent. It’s a cop-out to think otherwise. Don’t victimize yourself and give up your control (even if it’s only an illusion.) Yes, your brain may know seven seconds before you may be conscious of it – but YOU are the master programmer. Don’t make excuses because life is unfair. Take charge. You have the agency to give up… or make changes. Which do you choose?

I think the task is such a simple decision (which hand to use) that these results do not tell us anything about free will. Using a more complex decision (where to go out for dinner) would be more telling. That decision involves many choices: what do I want to eat, which restaurant would be best, is that place in my price range…

hi i think i have seen it in a movie the last samurai where a young man trying to learn martial arts was keep on failing on till he was told to not think because it slowed him down when he learnt it he became very good .

I recall reading many years back that a famous psychologist (I don't remember which one) said that we don't do things for the reason or reasons which we think we do. He said that we do things and then think of a logical explanation for why we chose that particular action, but that the true reason may have nothing at all to do with the explanation. This experiment seems to possibly support his statement.

No we don't have freewill as I discovered long ago. We are influenced on the conscious
and unconscious level every day of our lives and the 24 hr world of endless marketing
has only made the problem worse. This relentless broadcasting to our minds by all
available means known and unknown has created the chaotic modern world that we
live in today. People like to think that we are all unique individuals but the truth is the
masses roughly 97% is more like sheep lead to the slaughter.

Our society has a structure a hierarchy that is held in place and it enforces conformity
many times at the expense of individual freewill or free choice. Coupled with the relentless 24 hr broadcasting to our conscious and unconscious mind can anyone credibly argue that we have “freewill”. Unless you live in a remote part of the world where there is no mass communication of any kind or human population then it is virtually impossible to live outside of our collective matrix. Many will try to argue
in vain but facts are facts. We gave up our freewill in order to form our modern society
and all the advances that it supposedly offers. This is the trade off of the modern world.
Just think about this when a person has a truly genius idea it is called thinking outside
the box, that statement alone should make it clear about “freewill”. Society demands
conformity and will enforce it at all cost this would not be the case if true freewill
existed. Just another slice most be hold ideas in their heads that they think are facts
but are not they are just pieces of information that is generally accepted from collective
societal influences. This should make it abundantly clear about so called freewill. True
freewill thinkers are always in the minority and opposed by the majority so most subjugate their freewill in order to get along in society! Enforced conformity and true
expressed freewill cannot peacefully coexist!

This is not a “normal” situation. This is an experiment. The subject has no choice, really. The illusion of choice is about which button to press, but really there is no choice. The subject wants to be a good subject so he does not make the choice to press none of the buttons. Nor does he choose to not be put into the MRI tube, etc, etc. The point, he has an illusion of choice. He must press one of the buttons to fulfill his chosen role (good subject), however either button may be equally likely since there is no logical criteria for making a choice. Since he may play in his mind with which button to press the various parts of the brain will become activated. It is known that in order for physical motor activity to occur, the brain must first activate areas specific to the motor activity. There is nothing new here. In order to act one must first have the intention to act or the brain will not initiate the action. Since the subject in this experiment has no real reason for choosing one button over the other, he could be responding to unconscious urges to push one of the buttons (intention initiated in the brain) in order to fulfill his role.
The experiment bears a lot of similarity to early experiments in psychology in which subjects do unusual & unexpected things. For example hypnosis subjects who put their hand into a jar of liquid, which they have been told is acid, in order to get the money in the jar. The explanation is that the subjects believe the hypnosis state emboldens the subjects to take these “risks”.
Reality check: The subjects know it is an experiment & they want to be good subjects. (There are lots of reasons why people might want to be “good subjects”. Thes range from need for approval, self esteem , to desire to be called again for participation in future experiments). They also know that no experimenter is going to risk going to jail just to complete his experiment (consider what would happen to the experimenter if there really was sulfuric acid in the jar & he/she let subjects stick their hands into it).
More realistic experiments along this line need to allow subjects openness of choice. Thus for example the subject decides whether to respond & also why. Thus what is needed is tests which have subjects making choices for logical & / or emotional reasons, not just to please the experimenter.

Very interesting. Perhaps this is telling us that we DO have some ability to see the future, but for most of us this process only looks several seconds ahead. There was a
Nicholas Cage movie out where he had developed the ability for about two minutes ahead, which he was able to use to become a shady fortune teller and successful gambler on the blackjack tables in Vegas.

This suggests that time itself is not nearly so rigid as we think, and that a part of ourselves is not simply limited to the immediate 'now', but is looking ahead for us for immediate danger and, for even bigger dangers, may be looking minutes, hours, days ahead.

Consider how often it happens in a major disaster such as plane or train crash, how unusually small the number of people were on that flight/trip compared to normal.

This suggests that with proper training, meditation, experimentation, we perhaps could develop this ability even further, making a safer and better world. Coupled with logical prediction, we could shape the future the way we want it to be, rather than blindly accept an unacceptable world.

I don't think that the idea of my subconscious making my decisions for me before I know what I've decided means that I am not exercising free will. It might mean that we make our decisions with our subconscious and don't necessarily know what we think for seven seconds, but it's still my subconscious, so it's still my free will. I think.

When asking athletes to describe how they feel when in the zone, they often reply with “they could make reads quicker” or “it was like the game was in slow speed, but I was moving at a faster speed”. Could it be that when they are in this state, they have tapped into an altered state of mind that shortens the 6 – 7 gap in time between the subconscious mine and the conscious mind?

My psychologist hero, Silvan Tomkins (his book: Affect, Imagery, and Consciousness), anticipated such research with his notion of a `conscious report'. Silently mouth the word, conscious, he enjoins. Do you hear an audible `voice in your head' saying “conscious''? This is a conscious report of your lips moving to say, “conscious''. You are not aware of this, as kinesthetic sensations of your lip muscles, but as an audible voice. Thus, you can learn to give yourself a conscious report of something your mind-body-consciousness does in one sense modality, whereas the doing of it uses feedback of another sort. In the visual system, there is the phenomena of the what and where system: one part of the brain can recognize and describing something, while another cannot do this, but can work with a known type of object like a drinking glass. It is not that your brain does it before a conscious `you' knows, but there are different ways to be aware something you decide or do — some more friendly to memory, and explicit, verbal description than others. Presumably, you can train yourself to be consciously aware of the button press decision, earlier using the very apparatus of this experiment, as a biofeedback tool. It is a question of what kinds of consciousness, kick in at what points in time as a mind-body-person does things, decides things, perceives things. People with that “what'' part of their visual brains fryed, can use and drink from a glass fine, without consciously knowing naming what “that thing'' is, or even where it is in the spatial field.
It is true, that what we ordinarily regard as being explicitly aware — our conscious reports — some things — tends to happen late in the temporal sequence of activities of the mind-body. Not a terribly clear explanation — but perhaps evocative?

I'd like to respond to Sandino's comment as to me it touches on the core of what is free will.

In my life I have experienced much pain and suffering. I could relate to much of what was said in this post. I had by this point fallen into depression and wanted to die, I saw no purpose to my life for my inner self talk had become so habitual that I blocked all the wonders that were also happening around me. I was reactive and in fear letting my primitive reptile brain do all my decision making. The idea that no choice is a form of choice. Luckily for me there was still some consciousness in me and I kept enough hope to keep looking and came across little things that kept me believing there was a way out. Of those things that helped me move into consciousness was a book called A Course in Miracles. Slowly it helped me see I had a choice between being reactive or proactive. I discovered that the reactive choice is letting the filtering of the reptile brain to cause me to fall into fight, flight and freeze patterns for almost everything I did. The proactive path helped me get down into my primitive brain and bring questioning into my various fears. This questioning is consciousness. In consciousness I could hear my negative self talk and also see I was ignoring a lot of positives that were also present. I had now questions I could ask like: Why am afraid of this? or Where does this fear come from? or Is this true or am I imagining it? What evidence is there? What am I blocking? and many more. I also found coming from a conscious proactive way that decisions I make from there tend not only to benefit me but others as well. Now I'm not perfect and I still come from reactive a lot but I'm becoming more aware/awake to a real choice between love and fear. At this point I will say that what is love and what is fear also need to go through a conscious review to get rid of common mis-perceptions of what they are.

I don't expect anyone hearing this for the first time to get it. It took me a lot of years to get to the point where I am now. Living with inner peace and seeing more beauty and wonder around me daily. Here in is my concept of God also a term that is too limited to really be understood by those who view from labels rather than openness to Love.

I agree most of our behavior is automatic, scripted and predetermined and this
can easily be proven based on the predictable repeated behavior of the masses
97 % of the society. People become defensive when the learn the truth but it
does not change the truth because one does not like it!

No need to become depressed just unplug from the matrix, all the societal control
and communication devices that flood your mind, and move forward with your
life based on your new uninfluenced choices!

There was freewill about 4000 years ago but with each new technological advance
we gave it up in the name of the benefits of modern society. Individually you can
reclaim yours if you are willing to make the hard choices and unplug from the
matrix. How bad do you want your freedom?

Is this something like “my unconscious made me do it”?!

I think that the subconscious is the hard drive and that has been programmed by you consciously and subconsciously. Your subconscious is your advisor. If you don't like the advice it's giving you, then you have to change the programming through hypnosis. That has to be your freewill. In quiet moments you would listen to your advisor through meditation. For the remaining time you would trust your subconscious to make wise decisions for you, whilst you act in a very present and conscious way. I'm not sure that your subconscious can 'see' the future, but that your conscious mind is taking time to decide whether or not to 'listen' to the subconscious advice.

David Dobson, PhD, a genius on how the mind works came up with Other Than Communication and that the conscious mind is a gift of the other than conscious mind. So much in our life is out of our awareness or not conscious. We have validated that Other Than Conscious Communication works. We still have power of choice. We can choose to run our on brain. It does not run us. We are, however the sum of our experiences and hypnosis from the date of birth, starting with Mom, Dad, and then ministers, priests, teachers and peers. We can become more aware and run our brains more efficiently.

This is oh, so simple…why complicate it??
DO NOT IDENTIFY WITH THE CONSCIOUS MIND BUT WITH THE WHOLE MIND, which encompasses the Unconscious!…
Look: to build a house (or for ANY other creation process) there are 3 levels of activity: a) you think it, have the mental-picture; b) you draw it, have a 2-dimensional picture; c) you create the 3 dimensional one. The 'I' in its reality-creating process has to go through the phases of manifestation in which the conscious mind is the last player. This doesn't mean that YOU don't have free will, because YOU ARE THE WHOLE PROCESS.
[By the way: some day we will learn that before the Unconscious the decision was made 7 seconds before by... ]
We are SO MUCH MORE than the physical because the physical IS THE LAST ASPECT OF THE PROCESS OF the CREATION of who we are.

Hi, Just in case the experiment is not given to the candidates suddenly, and a person is in the process of explaining the experiment, “hi guys, you are free to choose either hand to press this button… blah blah”. What if the decision was taken by the candidate during that time itself? By nature, one can be tilted towards left or right. Is the expt still accurate then?

A while back, I experienced a powerful dream about a close friend, of over 20 years: He was wearing a mask, behind which was a frightening, sinister presence. Crazy dream stuff–I dismissed it, of course. Two years later, it came out that he'd been living a bit of a double life . . . and ripped off another friend for a lot of money . . . then abruptly moved out of town. The conscious “I” was deeply shocked; but obviously, some other part of me knew all along.

Absolutely! We have the potential for free will, but the default “autopilot” is always ready to make the decisions and trigger the action. Sadly, the decisions the “autopilot” (amygdala & associated circuitry) make are, by definition and reality, based on the past. If perchance the past has enough relevant data for the autopilot to make a sound decision, then all will be well. (But we will be in illusion as to our free will…) But even if the past data is not relevant or is too far off subject to give the autopilot enough to make a good decision, the autopilot will make the decision anyway. Then, if we do not interrupt the decision-to-action flow using the frontal lobes/executive function in the moments before the decision is sent to the action mechanism, then the autopilot decision goes through and we are stuck with the results. The only solution is to be present in the moment more and more. Or to reprogram the autopilot. Techniques and psycho-spiritual technologies are available for both. (Some examples are some forms of meditation such as Zen meditation; the Release Technique; Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy; and self- or hetero hypnosis.) Of course, we first have to recognize that most of the time we are walking around as zombie/robots….

[...] clipped from exploringthemind.com [...]

I don't think this means we don't have free will. Just that our decisions tend to be made “intuitively” before we're consciously aware of them. The process of making those decisions still depends very much, I think, on our culture, our upbringing, our preconceptions and pre-dispositions.

[...] is more interesting, if you recall a post from last week, which said that your brain makes a choice 6-7 seconds before you’re aware of it, is that the [...]

I think that more than anything- this article is documenting that what we “put” into our subconscious is what really makes the decisions. We have to watch what we do or listen to unconsciously- tv, dvd's, etc…and realize that these are truly having a profound impact.

Does this mean we really do NOT have free will?
I would say rather that our 'me' is much larger (and efficient) than our 'conscious' me- I feel that my conscious me is the part that can communicate verbally, like an interpreter.

An an interesting experiment, but what to make of it? As another here pointed out the researcher said our subconscious is unlikely lead us to make decisions out of alignment with out beliefs feeling, ideals. I see there is a tendency force some to compare free will when we have time to ponder a course of action, and those times when our brain is required to make fast spur of the moment decisions. In my opinion that would be comparing apples to oranges. As reported I don't find this study alarming at all.

Fantastic comment, succinct and on-target. Start with Napoleon Hill and Jung and end up with the latest neurophysiological research results. Now the trick is to be convinced that each of us have the capability to uplift ourselves and by extension all of humanity.

I think this is perfectly normal, and reflects one of the major responsibilities of our subconscious mind: That is to protect us. The only way we are able to experience life s through our senses. But – our eyes don’t really “see” neither do our ears “hear” Information is transmitted in wave form, which is deciphered by our “conscious” brain – the frontal cortex. But before that information gets there, it is filtered. In the case of sight, I believe 6 times. Along the way, some of that information gets filtered out, not everything reaching the frontal cortex. Those filters are VERY CLOSELY RELATED to our beliefs, thoughts, and experience. Now, here’s the thing, our conscious brain is very slow, can only deal with a few bits of information at a time, and can only transmit a few thousand bits of information at a time WHEREAS the subconscious handles thousands of items at a time and can transmit millions of bits of information at a time. NOW let’s suppose you are walking in the forest, look down as see at your left foot what looks like a snake – what happens? You have already jumped out of the way, or killed the snake, before the snake’s existence has registered in your conscious mind!! Your subconscious mind, sensing the danger, activated the fight/flight mechanism to save your life. But is it worthwhile remembering that your subconscious mind only LEARNED about the danger of snakes FROM YOU whenever you learned about the danger of snakes. Personally, I am quite happy to ALLOW my subconscious mind to get me out of tight spots. But it’s good to be aware, that it is ALWAYS RUNNING IN THE BACKGROUND, just like a computer program.
And with respect to “making choices” it seems to me the experiment did not so much demonstrate CORRECTNESS OR ERROR in the choice making. Rather, that based upon its knowledge of us, and its experience of us it perhaps knew the choice we would make. it didn’t make the choice for us. it only recorded it at the subconscious level before it was recorded at the conscious level by the button being chosen. If you have ever found yourself being angry for no obvious reason, and maybe asked yourself afterwards, why you got angry, and could not come up with an answer. Maybe that was your subconscious in control…. Whether we like to believe it or not, we are creatures of habit, and our habits are controlled by the subconscious.

I think if you didn’t have any time to decide,that would make it more obvious that it wasn’t a decision.Because you didn’t have any time to think things through,to weight the pros and cons,you just picked whatever.You are reacting.They used this particular experiment to show to what extent freewill is just an illusion.The more time we have to make a decision,the more it seems like we chose something.

Ok,obviously conciousness is part of the brain.But did they find freewill in that conciousness or just awareness of what’s happening?

Exactly.

definatly if there were less time available in the decision making process, It would be more likely the decision would be registered (by the scientists ) as a decision totally governed by your sub concious. Which it is anyway?….I think eveybody in this blog is missing the point, forget about the results of this video for one second,*- the fact that we are literally measuring brainwaves that govern our decisions….should be enough to tell us biology is the end of freewill. For a second- assuming you believe in free will….you are insinuating you, somehow control your brainwaves and the chemistry of your brain, you have full absolute control? you can control every equation and chemical influence that your exposed to? I’m sure humans in general are conditioned with this notion of ‘The UNIVERSE was created just for us’ and as you grow up and you hear lines like ‘Make the best of it’ and all people assuming we have have the power to change? The only power we have is to just be.

That is a very interesting point. You’ve got me thinking now. By what you say though everything is made up from science?

[...] lecture. Bakker’s very elegant with his argument and the more I research some of the actual factual experiments done on free will the scarier it [...]

but do these unconcious decisions rule us us we rule those unconcious decisions? Are the unconcious decisions made for our good or what??? can you tell me that???

Twins, lovers, friends and family have been doing this with each other for years and without a MRI machine Hence the saying you can run but you cannot hide cause you will always tell on your self. Be pure of thought/heart because someone close to you really knows your secrets. I think of all science as the study of God, or whatever you Choose (pun intended) to call it

You should check out ”What the Bleep down the Rabbit Hole” they did a similar experiment.

conciousness is the decision to do the physical act using our senses which we use while we are awake. the unconcious mind is a 24 hour system that keep us running.  so the way it works is determind by the physoligical  setting that is inborn as well as the social enviroment we live. free will is not as we think for our unconcious mind is the first and last system that determinds if we live or die.

I can’t understand why people are so reluctant to accept that we have no free will. We still think we have it and act as if we do. it’s like those in the dark ages who would not accept that the sun doesn’t revolve around the earth because it looks as if it does. People seem to think that because we think we have free will that we have it no matter what science reveals. I can only wonder if these people think we can step outside our own brains and make a decision.

 if we dont have free will, den how to fulfil dreams ……how to plan ??

[...] http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-deci... [...]

I am a compatibilist, which means that I do not think determinism and free will are necessarily contradictory. The neuroscientist in the video seems to hit the nail on the head: It makes no sense to say your decisions are hostage to your brain activity unless you assume that your preferences and intentions are not themselves aspects of your brain activity, and the evidence shows that they in fact are just that.

On another note, “libertarian” free will would actually require a violation of causality: You would have to be aware of being in the process of making a decision before the process of making the decision had even begun, and if causality holds, one cannot really be aware of any “X” before “X” occurs, but only of things that, due to prior knowledge, you know to likely preceed “X”. You would have to think about thinking a thought before thinking the thought, and before that you would have to have thought about thinking about the thought, and so ad infinitum. Since you cannot have a simultaneous awareness of an infinite number of thoughts, it follows that, in the process leading up to any thought, there must have existed a thought that was not something you planned to think, since that would require having thought about thinking the thought first. Thus, the results of these experiments should come as no surprise.

[...] we feel and think has an outside cause . There is strong evidence that our brains appear to know what we are going to think, before we are concience of thinking it. But the statement above still retains a Cartesian dualism of “inside” someones head and [...]

[...] are multiple lines of evidence to suggest this is true. We initiate actions before we are conscious of them. Many physicists argue that there is no such thing as time, i.e., that everything that has ever [...]

That assumes the researchers knew 100% of the time what was going to happen on many subjects, many times over. If that’s the case this study is of profound significance to humanity.

[...] are multiple lines of evidence to suggest this is true. We initiate actions before we are conscious of them. Many physicists argue that there is no such thing as time, i.e., that everything that has ever [...]

“The only condition was that they had to remember when they made the decision to either use their right hand or left hand.”

No; it does not mean we do not have free will. A person could have made the decision to use their right hand and then randomly overrided their thoughts and used their left hand. That one condition prevented that.

Oh wait, this article is 1 year old.
*goes back to Google*

[...] Originally Posted by Iyace Oh Goodness. Show me this. Hi Iyace, here it is and there is a video below: Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide” | Exploring The Mind… [...]

what about theories by evolutionary psychologists which occured prior to this knowledge. For example, being more attracted to women with a particular waist to hip ratio, the closing time effect where we find people more attractive when there is less opportunity for choice/time constraints, and so forth.

Its scary when taken together with the findings of evolutionary psychology that we are not as consciously in control as we think. Men are more attracted to women with a certain waist to hip ratio, brain areas which are designed to increase the probability of an adaptive behavior (like seeking out and eating high calorie food, completing a short or long term goal, engaging in things we are good at, seeking sex, engaging in risky activies which probably a long time ago had some evolutionary adaption) and the fact that drugs can manipulate these leading to a significant probability of reusing such drugs. Its very reductionistic but its hard to ignore the evidence when taken as a whole of our lack of free will

Read the journal articles methodology to better understand how they came to the decision they did from their results not something like this. A lot of times people will read a news article and say why the science is wrong failing to read the scientific journal.

 Even if we have free will, it is largely influenced by unconscious, which is storehouse of mental traits/personalities. The whole science is missing the foundation of spirituality (not religion). Once Science and Spirituality start working together then we will see transformation at every level. Spirituality explains concepts like Soul, Supreme Soul and the time cyclic eternal world Drama. These concepts will solve almost all the world problems.

Through self-inquiry everybody can find out by himself, that there is no free will on any level. But of course no-one can freely decide to make this self-inquiry or not Everything just happens.

what you are forgetting is that the entire process of “you” (your brain) has to obey the laws of physics. your decisions (the first step mentioned in your explanation) are only physical connections that occur based on previous physical aspects. if every action has a reaction then the physical reactions in your brain are “pre-determined” so to speak. therefore your decisions arent really decisions at all. 

 Except he obviously made a choice.  Anyone familiar with playing video games knows that you can make a conscious choice based off of new information in a matter of microseconds if you are not in “auto-pilot” mode.

The lag from your soul, perhaps? Curious, very curious.

Is their any perfect example of freewill. Can mankind ever figure out why we do this and do that. The answer is we decided to do it based off of our passed experiences. I wont go as far to say their isn’t freewill but our conscious is a slave in the illusion of freewill by our subconsious. But we are our subconcious and we are our conscious. The simple fact is the part of us that is concious can almost never control our subconcious unless we take control of our mind. Most of the world has no freewill but If it is somehow possible to master our mind than we should be able to control all of our bodilly functions our thought our vison our sense of smeel and so on. Though humans may use 100 percent of our brain how much do we control? the fact that our subconcious has this much power is probaly for the best because its capacity far exceeds our concious. So in the end you are a slave to your self and in some cases people who easilly allow input to control them or continuely have the same input put into them than they become more than just partially brainwashed by the enviorment they become the enviorments slave. The more we overuse technolog the more we seem to be losing freedom. Not because we create   technology but because we can’t live without it. Right now we already live in the matrix called Advandced civilization we created in the physical world. 70 or so more years we will be living an a one thats actually virtual, Anyway you look at it soon we will be living in a dynostopian reallity.   

The Bible (e.g. Word of God) already told us this “starling” fact. We are born into slavery in our hearts. The word heart in English is translated from “Kor” in Greek, which literally means center. The part of the brain making these subconscious choices is the center. Some have referred to it as the “alligator brain”.

Thoughts are generated there based on genetics, chemistry and the addictive chemicals (e.g. dopamine and other opiates) used both those bio-electric mechanisms. The generation process happens beneath your conscious awareness where you cannot see it, control it, choose it or otherwise participate.

That said — there is your physical, biological, chemical, genetic brain and then there is YOU: The “Real” you and not the thoughts generated from your biology. You get to choose to follow the thoughts flowing into your conscious awareness from your subconscious mechanics or not. You DO have a choice.

Moreover, given this new information you now have a basis for understanding that the genetic and biologic mechanisms do not invent anything. They work with what they are given — that is — the mind is a genetic engine like garden soil. The garden soil responds to the seeds that are planted within it. So, the mechanism of your subconscious mind works with the seeds of thinking planted within it. Thus, what appears in your conscious mind for you to choose from is the combined effort of the seeds planted there (nurture) and the genetic mechanisms of your brain (nature).

This answer an age-old conundrum: Am I the way I am based on nature or nurture. The reality is: BOTH!

Now — with all that said: An issue remains: Who is your seed source? There are ultimately two: God and Satan. You choose. You decide. What source of seeds have been planted in you? From what source has the mechanism of your mind been seeded with from which to make choices to present to you in your conscious mind?

Your ultimate choice is to figure out from what seed you want your mind (subconscious and conscious) planted, nurtured and grown?

The choice is now yours. Make it a good one!

I’d like to see this experience repeated and in different settings. This poses more questions than it solves. What about split second decisions that we all make when driving? Does your inconscient knows the future?! Funny how science drives towards a complete description of the human mind in mathematical prediction but we can’t seem to make artificial intelligence (consciousness) with the imensely powerful computers we have today.

I read most comments here. Some people touched on the perspective which is my comment. I have to say that this 7 seconds is stated to be fact here means that everyone has a 7 second premonition capability, ie: can see into the future by 7 seconds with their subconscious. Example, you’re driving down the road, regardless of the ultimate decision that is made, you see the child that runs across in front of your moving vehicle 7 seconds before they actually run across in front of you. Does this mean we don’t have free will? No it does not. It means we exercised our free will 7 seconds earlier. However, that movie with Nicolas Cage where he could see into the future 2 minutes, he had the presence of mind to change his decision whereas we don’t. But then again, that was a movie with a supposed fictional power of foresight.

[...] interesting to observe that none of us are as “in control” of ourselves as we think we are.  Recent research shows that “by monitoring the micro patterns of activity in the frontopolar cortex, the [...]

[...] interesting to observe that none of us are as “in control” of ourselves as we think we are.  Recent research shows that “by monitoring the micro patterns of activity in the frontopolar cortex, the [...]

wow i was kinda creeped out but i do things without even thinking about it like walking i didnt tell myself i was going to walk i kinda just did and talking when i speak words come but i didnt and i did know what i was gonna say if you ask me thats pretty spooky

No, what that means to me is that the more conscious of the workings of our subconscious mind we are, the better we can make decisions based on a much deeper source than we think we are.  Until we do deeply conscious, subconscious, or unconscious work, we are driven by what the limitations of what we think from the conscious mind only, whereas true thought, true feeling, true decision making, true action must encompass of levels of ourselves.  The conscious ego can never do that kind of work because it would duplicate itself ad infinitum with no real answer in sight.  To reach the depths of the unconscious and become informed of our unacknowledged thoughts, feelings, patterns of desire, etc. we need to let go of the superficial ego and dive in, deeply in.  It is only scary for the limited self because of it’s mental construct of how reality should be, that it holds on to so tightly to create a safe life for itself, which has nothing to do with the true levels of experience and existence.  If one has the courage to let go and dive in, become conscious of those unconscious levels as an impartial observer, the whole universe changes, the whole point of view changes, and just by doing that, our very own viewpoint changes, into a much more real experience, where bliss and light are the true backdrop of all our thoughts, of all our feelings, and of all our actions.  

The universe is a simulation and works like a computer. As your body is slower than your consciousness the body reacts first before the mind. Watch Tom Campbell the Hawaii seminar on You tube where similar experiments have been performed. It is a compelling watch

 Interesting, to say the least. I can only wonder if this is related to our brains performing multi-functions on a conscience level. Could it be that we are thinking 6 or 7 steps ahead. or seconds ahead in order to process the next bit of information?

Its called the SOUL

the sould makes a decision first and lets the brain know 7 seconds before

before you actually do it

[...] Share • Embed • 7h ago    Julian PeetersYou are 7 seconds too late.  http://exploringthemind.com/the-…Comment Loading… • Share • Embed • Just now  Add [...]

[...] Read the “Reading” from Lesson 1.  http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-deci… [...]

I apologise in advance but this post is extremely stupid. You seem to forget the very basic premise of scientific methodology. Experiments like these need to start at basic choices before moving in to more complex reasoning. In all honesty you sound like an undergrad psychology student who had his first lecture on the limitations of psychological methodology.

Of course the subject did not choose to not press the button. He volunteered for the flaming experiment! What would be the point in taking part and NOT doing the experiment. That would be retarded! The point of the experiment, which you are clearly oblivious to, is to ascertain whether a simple choice (i.e. choosing between A or B where they have equal value) is made consciously (i.e. ‘the thinker’ is making a choice) or sub-consciously (i.e. in the absence of ‘the thinker’).

The conclusion of the study is that a simple decision is made prior to conscious awareness of that decision. The implication is that it is only AFTER a decision has been made that the subject is conscious of a decision. In other words a choice has been made and afterwards the conscious mind says “I made that choice” giving the illusion that “you” had made that choice.

Of course other studies are required to explore choice in other complex scenarios but that does not in any way detract from the relevance of this study.

so who made this post then??

[...] More @Exploring the Mind. [...]

“it could only go one way”

The real proof for free will lies in juxtaposing scenarios which are obviously determined with those which might not be. If I jump from a tree, a scientist could say with certainty, “In 7 seconds you will land.” (It’s a high tree.) I cannot frustrate his prediction in that case because the action of falling is determined for me. But I don’t believe any scientist could tell me with certainty, “In 7 seconds, you will jump.” It seems that I could always frustrate him by simply choosing not to jump. I have written on this in greater length in my blog. Please feel free to visit Larry Hunt’s Bible Commentary, Romans 7 notes.

why do we generally take a left turn

It’s nonsense. There are a lot of people who believe in determinism because they think that physical causality is both inescapable and (here’s the rub) can only have one outcome. That is, Universe state A is bound to inexorably lead to Universe state B and nothing else. They apply that belief with religious fervour and they expect the universe to fit their idealistic notions. They consider people to be rather stupid when they don’t buy their simplistic brand of logical positivism. Also, the experiment was arguably meaningless because the decision to use the right or left hand was meaningless and would tend to naturally set up a cognitive algorithm which was then detected. Sometimes university researchers can be very, very stupid.

As far as I know at this moment, most humans have the illusion of free will, but not free will as it truly is. Another interesting point/question is: what is “free will”? A friend of mine once explained, that free will only exists if consciousness is the driver of your carriage, so to speak. If memory/ego is the dominant force, then you do not have free will at all, but the illusion thereof. Thanks for allowing me to share.

“Marcus is really disturbed here…”
Nah. He’s not disturbed. He’s trying to make an exciting program so he has to *look* disturbed, and of course tell the audience how shocked he is. It’s called television. Made for entertainment. Take it with a pinch of salt (his reaction, that is). In fact, take the whole thing with a pinch of salt until you’ve checked it and double-checked it with more reputable sources than a journalist (and a BBC journalist to boot).

Perhaps, we make the decision to drive the action potential that sorts these things out. We definitely have more going on underneath, but all of these actions can’t be made aware of or it might take too long. Also, maybe we offset a lot of actions that were once made consciously to this behind the scenes chatter, and also integrate familiar scenarios.

Also, he was shown a choice for at least 6 seconds? What about impulse decisions?

[...] Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide” – Exploring the mind [...]

[...] to start a blog is easy. A few neurons fire in your brain, the decision is made almost instantly (some argue the decision is even made before we even know it). You foresee yourself in some sort of The Social Network style montage that results in you reaping [...]

Surely the brain activity seen in preparing to use either hand to press a button is itself a consequence of the prior decision to commit oneself to the experiment and does not therefore mean the brain is ‘controlling’ you against your will?

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It comes down to this:
“Something” in us may know 7 (6 according to the investigator) seconds before we are conscious of it what will happen. If a car suddenly appears in front of yours coming from the right, and you slam on the brakes and instantly make a flash decision to steer to the right of it to pass behind it, and this decision was based on a millisecond calculation, then either decisions can be made nearly or completely simultaneous with their execution, or if the making of that decision took place 6-7 seconds earlier, “something” -call it the brain if you will- already knew 6-7 seconds before the actual event happened that it would. That would be pre-cognition.

One thing is obvious from the experiments: “something” in us can be aware of things before we are. And it can make decisions before before we are conscious of them.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if a video of a traffic situation as described would be shown to the subject, and he or she would have to react to it instantaneously.

Also -and this was not explained- to actually have the subject hold a neutral image in mind of both hands with neither of them pressing the button, and then say “Left now!” and do it at the “Now!” And “Right now!” and press the right button, again at the “Now!”

Yes. But it’s a “superwoman” or “supernatural” you who is making decisions. On the human level you might not be aware of your “supernatural” Self.

This research has been at the heart of CPHT Hypnotherapy training for a long time now, and whilst this would appear to suggest a lack of control over our decisions, it in fact opens the door to more and better control.

I think it’s like decisions we make have already been made 7 seconds ago , it just took 7 seconds to transform to thoughts …

I have always been aware that if I can’t consciously remember something I just ask my subconscious and when I have counted up to 6 the answer ” pops ” into my conscious 19 times out of 20

I understand the general idea of subconscious mind realizes decision and then it goes to conscious mind or what not.what doesn’t make sense to me is “7 seconds” that is quite a gap. In the example where he is in a cafeteria with food coming down the line… the food wasn’t even in his range of view 7 seconds before so therefore is this study implying that your brain (I know brains are amazing!!!) through some type of subconscious sensory already knows whats coming down the food line before it is even picked up by our senses (smell,sight,touch,sound,taste) that just sounds crazy!. Another example. What if a robber with a gun was in your closet and going to pop out and point a gun at you in 5 seconds and you were going to scream. This studies’ conclusion indicates that your subconscious mind would already know you were going to scream before it even realized a burglar was in the house or perhaps this study is implying the sunconsious mind already knows both. Very confusing I know. just what i was thinking!

(I guess before I even began typing ha ha)

This is more about the subconscious knowing what you will do rather than the subconsciousness controling what you do. Other research show that the subconsciousness can predict what you will do before we know what the decision question is.

[...] force on the parameters of our logic and ensuing rational arguments. Brain scans show that a decision can be predicted up to 7 full seconds before our conscious minds become aware of the outcome. Consciousness is the gatekeeper, and final reasoning checkpoint [...]

We have Free Will. It is a gift from God. If you put God first he will bombard you with blessings which could very well include re-unions and protection from harmful outside influence. God Bless Sandino. M.J.Subs

The good news is Sandino you will always have Love. Its all around us and comes in many different ways and forms. Sorry about one of these forms being compromised. I will Pray that other forms and expressions of love become recognisable to you and they free up your Free Will. Take Care. God Bless.

Okay, but if the brain reactively prepares an action based on conscious perception, then the ability to control the consciousness would be willing the preparation and even then, until you consciously allow your hand to move it doesn’t move. That would mean the brain automatically started to move and then automatically vetoed itself until you consciously allowed it to move.

Think about it, there is a clear distinction between voluntary and involuntary action, and involuntary can be consciously reigned in. Involuntary functions set up the capacity for voluntary action over involuntary functions that make up the act. Even if that is so, the voluntary function is still there and enabled reactively.

Proactive construction of reactive established and supported by reactivity of the brain. You see a remote, reactively the the functions to pick the remote up fire. But it doesn’t happen. Why? Because you haven’t considered it yet. You consider it, more functions fire, but then you consider against it and then those functions reverse, and functions to do something else happens.

The reactivity of preparation reactively engaged conscious say so..The action does not occur until we allow it to occur.. Involuntary actions occur to allow you to decide, but until the decision happens, the rest of the involuntary actions constituting voluntary movement do not occur. If “you” are in the block of “voluntary” then that means you involuntarily established are controlling involuntary past that point. Free will is established by a lack of free will. Involuntary established you and willpower TO BE IN CONTROL.of it. And so we are.

I see many comments refer to God and being predestined to take certain decisions. Do not forget that your unconscious is still part of who YOU are and that each second you’re a different version of yourself. We often train ourself consciously and thus affect our unconscious as well.

Could this in some way give us a measurable first interaction point of our spirit with our flesh? Some believe that all persons have a spirit (a decision making intellect with free will) that exists even after the flesh dies. So this spirit interacts with our flesh for a time while we live in this world. You know what I mean. The spirit of the individual is making the decisions with free will (sort of outside of the flesh). You’ve heard of near death experiences when the person rises out of the body and can see their own body and even other things not in the same room, etc. Can the spirit “see” things before the flesh and make decisions 7 seconds beforehand? Is the subconscious and conscious brain delay measurable in dogs as well? That might shed some light on thoughts like
do dogs have a spirit or a soul? Typically I like to think of the soul as the emotional component of self – not the same as the decision making component of a person. But I figured I’d mention it as well.

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xmblaksjfghruewpp[qmx.;a’;';;HLSDKxmrkds”’asldpwiepwkdqlifppwqowpepwoep And that’s just part of it if I had the time I would tell you the rest of it. I was so much older then I’m younger than that now.

I think you are on to something here. Many philosophers and religious people refer to it as a limited free will. This seems to prove their statement. And by the way what is time. Maybe the decision is made in that part of ourselves, the soul, that is not bound by time. So the decision is made and has to pass through several layers, filters or delays before registered in what WE call consciousness. Maybe in this case time can go forward or backward since it is relative to the situation.

[...] “Your decisions are strongly prepared by brain activity. By the time consciousness kicks in, most of the work has already been done,” said study co-author John-Dylan Haynes, a Max Planck Institute neuroscientist (find out more at Exploring the Mind).” [...]

Great post!!..Our memory is consulted first before we are conscious of a thought and therein lies the split second search of a life’s memory banks for similar experiences and what meaning we derived that will decide our conscious decision at the present moment.

In these instances, we do not exert free will because we are not inserting a new concept that will take us off that habitual path of blindly following our memories into our present moments.

To exert free will, we must seize the moment and say “NO” to the habitual impulse and create a new way of dealing with a situation that will enter into our memory banks before it is realized but will have been created with our free will. When enough of these “NO” moments are created our memory becomes habitual to them and we are thus naturally changed in our perception of ourselves and our reality

[...] http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-deci... [...]

This seems to give some credibility to the theory of Simulated Reality.

To put it in computer terms; you would be the GUI, the subconscious would be the OS, and the brain would be the computer.

The GUI takes a while to load, you put in input to the GUI, the OS processes it in the brain, and eventually displays the outcome to the GUI. The total construct is “you”, your consciousness is an illusion “you” use to deal with temporal existence.

Removing the effect of conscious choice does not follow from understanding that the choice was made before we were aware “we” made it. We still made the decision, it just took a few seconds to know we made it.

[...] forces of our emotionally charged motivations and temptations. Brain scans can reveal a decision up to 7 seconds before you consciously decide! Of course, this shouldn’t come as any surprise to those of us [...]

[...] to ourselves. Did you know that your brain knows the answer to questions, responds to touch, etc. 7 seconds before you act on a given situation? That’s why many of us will say, “I knew that would [...]

[...] More Resources on How much of computer programming is done by your subconscious: http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-deci... [...]

[...] tricky thing in avoiding this mistake is that we generally act before we think, leaving us to rationalize our actions [...]

[...] tricky thing in avoiding this mistake is that we generally act before we think, leaving us to rationalise our actions [...]

what would happen if your subconscious could be played to you through other voices before it is released to the brain. like through a audio system or through someone else

what would happen if you could listen to your subconscious

ridiculous situation.

[...] science: experiments have shown that the brain prepares us  to act *before* we make a conscious decision, especially when we have a strong habit or instinct. Unless we can find a way to short-circuit a [...]

It is still free will. Just because it takes 7 seconds for your brain to let your body know your decision, it is still your brain that has made the decision freely. You are in fact, your brain. The body is the brains tools to get its ideas expressed. To be fed, to be mobile.

by forming or creating your Identity (you are actually encoding your Unconscious energy) and through this encoding (programming) , you make your future decision right now), you must have heard that time is an illusion, yes indeed it is, because what you are deep inside (your true personality and identity), really matters, which takes place right in this MOMENT!
you are actually dreaming in this 3D physical world, and as your night dreams are emanations of your subconscious mind, your deeds and decisions are emanation of your Unconscious energy field encoded (programmed by your soul matrix)

[...] consciously make a decision. Here is a short article and video which demonstrates the experiment. http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind…ore-you-decide So many paths to the same destination, would, but I could, experience them all… [...]

If one considers the way the subconscious can be altered by experiences, perhaps free will might be understood in a longer sense. I mean the way we respond alters over time the way the subconscious responds. So by responding in a certain way over time gradually increases the propensity to respond in kind, gradually reducing the ability to freely choose an alternative. However therapy using “mindfulness” seeks to use that to our advantage and so free will is not about the immediate but the pattern?

Perhaps the researchers can know my answer 7 seconds before me… I’m sorry, but I think it’s ridiculous! At least I can offer an example in which it doesn’t run: when I’m running, I need to make decisions in fractions of seconds, and so at least in this case is not the case…

This is amazing stuff, and it bodes well to remember what is revolutionary to the western mind is olden art to the olden world. Thought control has inspired many books and films and remains a paranormal science fiction than a very real power and science. In this age of information technology and accessibility with transparency of research and it’s findings we would hope an escape from the mysteries into the light of understanding how the mind works, it’s frailties vulnerabilities and ways and meodology to make the collective mind a portal of goodness humanity liberty and peace than a matrix of confusion chaos and suffering. For when Mankind conquers its own mind and is able to control his own will the he will be truly free.

it is good news dam they now alot

i hate it no good for you

Is it really true that some of the people can see the future just by dreaming?

[...] This is now proven by science . Benjamin Libet was a scientist that looked at the electrical activity going on in the brain and proved that a full two seconds before you made a conscious decision to do something your brain had already made the decision unconsciously..…and now a new study in the Max Planck institute in Germany is able to predict the decision making of people a full seven seconds before they consciously make the decision by looking at the areas in their brain that light up under an MRI. Here is a link to the article and the 5 min video documentary.. http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-deci... [...]

yeah, i think this is true. because there are zombie catepillars being controlled by voodoo wasps by chemicals.

The real implication of these results simply raises the question of who we really are? The result is only “shocking” if you adopt the limited point of view that we are only a physical entity expressing our consciousness in three dimensional time and space. Expand your point of view to the possibility that you are far more than this and the real “you” actually functions beyond time and space then the result is exactly what you would expect and is a natural consequence of this fact. The result simply point to the possible reality that the physical is a precise, profound and poignant reflection and manifestation of our metaphysical source and state of being. Nothing unusual here…

The scientist only gives the 7 seconds as fact. The rest seems like his harmless opinion as to free will or not. I’m sure if asked he would freely and willingly agree that outside of the raw data hes got some personal theories. He seems like hes having fun thinking about what it might mean. I don’t get the impression he is trying to suggest he knows what “it” means. Funny how some people get scared. Relax. You can still be a know it all pompous ass.

Now all the negroids will seek to be freed from prison, because “It wasn’t my fault-afus, I beez getting racism’d by my brains-afus!! LAWS YES!”. Disgraceful nonsense.

the heart knows before the mind

The idea that free will is somehow being usurped is erroneous once you understand that your own subconscious is making the decision… who else is inserting the idea into your head? Thoughts do not leave their source, you must be the source of your own closed loop data.

[...] Many decisions we make are already made by our brains before we think we make them! lol [...]

[...] [...]

so there is a lag between the brain and the motor it controls. so what?

Bushy Van Eck is leading this theory of time perception and it will change how modern science views Einstein’s theory of relativity. We have been looking at it the wrong way and Bushy’s theory is sure to change the paradigm of human conciseness once understood by the masses.

He also explains the relation of our sub conscious mind to how it effects our conscious reality. What if someone’s sub conscious mind is delivering the data to their conscious reality in a altered way?…how would that person’s perception of reality change? Like people with Autism and Aspergers Bushy’s theory will help us understand how to help these people. Also when we use drugs their effects are directly related to changing the speed at which our brain’s operate which creates an altered perception of time. The faster your brain operates the slower time is perceived and visa versa… for those how having taken LSD you will remember that 10 minutes can feel like 2 hours. That’s because your brain is operating faster slowing down your perception of time….is only one example of endless possibilities once his theory is understood.

Bushy Van Eck is leading this theory of time perception and it will change how modern science views Einstein’s theory of relativity. We have been looking at it the wrong way and Bushy’s theory is sure to change the paradigm of human conciseness once understood by the masses.

Finally if we were experiencing our realties at the speed of our subconscious minds our senses would be overwhelmed with data because our subconscious mind is not filtering or organizing this data to be understood. Therefore making this 6 sec delay a must for us to process out the extra data and receive the data from our reality on a need to know basis.

on the deep level is absolutely no free will, you can see that things are happening and you just watch it, do you control your new thought? No. It comes by itself,

There are a lot of parameters not mentioned in the Berlin experiment video. In real life, we usually do not pause for seven seconds and make a decision. For example, in the game of tennis, the decision to hit the ball down the line or cross court requires that you make the decision within 3 seconds. In boxing, an opponent can barrage his target with a complex sequence or combination of punches and decision making boils down to reflex actions based on battle strategy. During a fire fight using actual bullets that are aimed to kill, a second is too long, once must either use an automatic weapon or shoot his gun in very fast sequence, like two bullets in quick succession in order to neutralize the perpetrator. Driving in the road, where one is required to make critical decisions in real time, six seconds in too slow for anyone… it could even be fatal specially in main roads where speedy car about and one has to make a quick decision, in miliseconds.
Although, seven seconds may be useful when one has a temptation to punch some person’s lights out in the heat of argument. Someone said that it is good to count to seven first before doing something drastic. In fact I think seven seconds may save someone from committing a felony or even murder. It is the emotion of our body versus the voice in our head. The voice in our head tells us to be slow to anger while the adrenalin of anger tries to get us into combat or flight/flee reaction.

I think making action(to decide) what to do and taking action (doing) is multi complicated wiring system in our brain and i think the time lag is a matter of neuron connection between deciding and doing, second does our mind reside in subconscious? I don not think no body know yet. third do we have free well , yes and no, think about it like solving an exam, you do not have the free well to put the exam you like,but you have the free well to put any answer

Our decisions is not made by our conscience. We’re not aware of what our inner thoughts are, are we?

This text makes sense very well to me “our decisions are made seconds before we become aware of them”

This is why religion comes short. We can’t change our act just because we’re aware of what is wrong and right. We have to be changed from the inside.

You have no idea what you’re talking about.

That is pure and utter nonsense, especially since people change all the time.

This sounds like what the Holographic Universe theory is all about.

First we serve an awesome God : ) There are over 1 billion neurons in the human brain. Each neuron has over 20,000 connections with other neurons. These connections can fire upto 1000 times a second. There are more of these high-speed connections in the human brain than there are stars in the visible universe. However, that is not nearly enough hardware to give our brains the processing speed and power they needed. Given that thought can travel faster than the speed of light… You should all read a paper by Prof. John Cramer. Prof…. John Cramer has a very interesting experiment concerning the phenomena of quantum non-locality. Particles that travel faster than the speed of light can affect the subatomic level in essence sending a message from one phototon to another backwards through time to be received before it was sent. Currently on earth these retro-causality effects are minor. However in the future…. well let’s just say the 21st century holds a lot of surprises : ) Remember to keep your thinking really post formal!
In the words of Professor William Nelson: When Planck, Bohr, Schodinger, and a host of others proved the undeniable existence of quantum theory, it shocked the scientific world. When Heisenberg proved the indeterminacy of this quantum theory, it shook the scientific world. Einstein could not accept this theory. He said, “I do not believe that God plays dice with the Universe”. Einstein believed in a cohesive force of subtle control of the universe. A true post formal thinker is often times just some one who can see that two seemingly opposite theories can actually be expressions of a third theory. Einstein did this by recognizing that a falling body to one observer might be a body at rest to another. He did not live long enough to so analyze quantum theory. With this more intellectual flexibility try reviewing the problem again. Oh yes and do have fun!

i don’t believe in free will anyway, and this kind of just proves me RIGHT to be paranoid haha… even if it is our unconscious mind taking in all possible factors and making the decision before we can, that can hardly be called free will…but i’m more of the holographic universe sort, that somebody, an “I” that is behind the scenes, dreaming this dream, so in that way it is still ‘I’ making the decision, but we are in as much control as we are of our dreams, even though it is “I” doing the dreaming… unless we become lucid, but that’s another discussion maybe

[...] many times, being well-versed in the scriptures. I ask this: If a brain scan reveals your choice several seconds before you yourself become aware of making a choice, where is your free will? It is [...]

Yes.. I don’t think that everything it happens in the brain and I don’t think, too, that for the place where it happened all these things the Scientists can measure with a device. We are MORE than we can see and measured. We are a mystery.

why is it disturbing. Its clearly proof that You are Spirit first then body second. nothing a bit disturbing about that.Spirit wont steer you wrong its that ego consciousness that gets you in trouble

thats good info but WITH CAPS your shouting.

Yes but you have to have the device to function on this plane. The brain is just a computer. Hardware with downloadable soft ware. But the power to run the system well that has to come from somewhere else and that I believe is what you are referring to. But don’t belittle the brain (the device) without it in proper function we are out of luck on this plane.

[...] http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-deci... [...]

This just means we run thru most of our lives on auto pilot.

Excuse me while I wait 7 seconds to see what decision I made (smile).

From the roof tops.

this study do not give any new insight into what we already knew.
we know that brain activity must happen before anything at all can happen to the human body, because brain activity causes thinking, moving etc. it should not be surprising that decisions (activity) is happening in the brain before we are aware of them.

the only thing surprising for me at least is that they can demarcate what choice you are going to make (left/right) 7 seconds before, that is a lot of seconds.

[...] Maybe its our unconscious simply becoming aware of the need for a decision. Or something else. Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide” | Exploring The Mind… Well that's what the study suggests. And it's convincing. It happens all the time with different [...]

Fascinating!! If i did not know that the subconscious runs the show and that i am not my conscious mind, which took me many years of study and training to realize, this would sure FREAK ME OUT! Got me thinking, thank you for posting this

This only goes towards providing proof of what “I” have always believed – Free Will is an illusion. It always has been and always will be.

[...] http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-deci... Share this:TwitterDiggRedditLinkedInFacebookPocketGooglePinterestTumblrStumbleUpon [...]

so in quickly answering a question after hearing it….by this article it seems that yor brain already made a decision how will react and what is the best answere you think is right 7 seconds before you actualy hear a question???and if its not possible for your brain to see future and react before you witnes your act or opinion(who is made by you coz you are the brain and brain is you so if brain thinks something i the best in your point of wiew) its not realistic or dont have sense coz after hearing question i dont realy need 7 second to react how my brain(my character-personality, automatic response of my experience and logical thinking) decided….or we need 7 sec to realise what we done(without knowing why) like unconciously react then after 7sec find out that we done something haha… or in term just like self awareness of present continuous action 7 sec after,nooooonono…or after 7 seconds we just start to think about our response or analize out our act whats already made conciosly in the nearly past time, 7 sec before actualy…your life your choice

ism typing but i didnt choose to do this my brain did 7 secont ago and he desided that i will correct only few wrong spelled words even been aware of all of them the same moment as they occured by accidently pressed wrong button on touch dcreen but my brain actualy allready knew that 7 sec ago even in that moment didnt happend yet and it desided that i will read this last sentence 4 times and not being contentrated what i read so in the moment of ending that sentence he knew 7 seconds before that he/i will do that way and have need to repeat because i wanted to..and now just came to me i could move my finger up and down fast acros the screen just for fun but while concentrating on writing 7seconds ago he decided out of knowhere i could do that just to proof that its not like that..and even while writing as iam thinking without knowing how will my sentence end he already know, i dont need to bother, i will know it after i finish sentence not after 7 seconds….if you tell me that he know just part of sentence 7sec ago and after those 7 another part of sentense 7sec after those previous because it had me 14min to finish then he could knew even 3 sec or less just a different amount of info…now i didnt saw an spelling error bu he did with his imaginary eyes and decided to move my finger up to see the ereor and decide to fix it,, but i corrected it in moment of seeing it so how could my brain know 7 sec before that ill do that if didnt know the situation but still i acted in the moment not done it and after 7 sec realising hey look i corrected it without knowing even i saw it 7 sec before but

so i find a gun and pick it up but the next 7 sec iam not aware that i did that…and in the mean time police killed me…nonono…i didnt know its a gun on the flor and sudenly saw it, with no time to waste i pick it up instantly with my left hand, situation lasted 2 seconds but people with magnet shhit skaned my head and it showed 7 secons before i pick up the gun that i will do it with left hand even i dont knew it exist around me for 5 seconds of that entire 7….whaaat

trying to have a reason to publish info about that we all have same brains or in some cases similar but we are all different by way of thinking because of set of circumstances…the way of order and kind of info we get in our brain and way using them to learn with combination of life experience and logical thinking is making us same as everyone different than each other…in some term we canot choose how we will become because we are like automated bio machines who can be aware of their actions and we think that what we think is the best by ourself point of wiew and reason..so we could think we think but we just some kind observe our life like somekind of movie because our brain which is ourselfs react automaticly based on our stands, toughts, traumas, complex amount of factors…and because thats who we are and each one in your head is logical to himself and feel sence to do and be like they are u think you are controling the situations but its just a coincidsnce trigger followd with specific words, seeings, enviroment…every new thing we learn even now maybe doesnt mean anything for us maybe will result someday with specific act or it will change your previous response…becaouse of that we have a option to reprogram, but not with our effort, again its a code who expands and how time goes we change, someone for better someone worse, but both thinks in a good way for them because their brain works like that and they cant have influence on that except by someone else involving

…..involving in a way of giving targeted opinions ,informations, in a specific order and rapidly repeating untill that person start using these info for learning new things…or thinking its learning….thats because we can be manipulated and brainwashed easely…if i know or iam aiming for ones who have complex to do oposite what its orderd or told because of early complexes i will order oposite that i want and all those people will automaticly do what i actualy want, thinking they are doing what they want, end they do now but if i orderd or told oposite thing than above said, same done it in intention too have or to gain acttions i want no matter what reason or situation it is they will always be happy or proud of their actions until they do the oposite…and on this examle if understandable you can do so much similar things because on some hand its enough just to know what is in the nature of people or kind of people, their instinct behaviour and auto thoughts…many pscyhological disorders are kind of personalities/people and they have got names to tag the unique stronger or weiker abilities, and they are result of circumstances and wrong thinking what is based on situacions they whitnesed and gudged generaly instead individualy.than making false belives and stands…as fake informations flows around the world because of someone elses need trusted people use thsm to learn something new but is it the true…after realising its not they still runned their thoughts and made conclusions and no matter they got clue they cant change just

just like that because theyr past toughts are now some kind of code, part of system that you instaled for some time and you canot just say oh i was wrong and stard behave diferently…that sht becoms part of your life if believing in those and lived by them…if u have been neglected as achild as adult you will seek it maybe become arogant, narcisistic and not even have clue about it…it just happend…if lucky or maybe not, you make a mistake and with some new parts of life you understand that xou are selfish, not verx morral, some kind not care but have been conseved or told that isnt right you came to conclusion that you wanna change for better…maybe also create some nobel toughts about how it would be better but no matter what u know that you cant change your true self unless something makes you feel like it…knowing snd understanding is not the same, if you are told or just know something by some kind of dource if taking it for granted or like its showd unspite how you feel about it or not having ability to consider why how does and ecc…..and is this what makes sense…then xou can embrace a lie and how they get so many adter time xou can start to live life blind folded not even knowing it

you act how your brain function baised on whst hr can use , and the larger amound of info its a larger chance to make a better decision….you think you think but you are actualy some kind of antenna who pickups everything around and gather this in brain so he can proces detailed comlexed tasks opinions and come to concluzion…if u cant answer or make a understand or learn something similar to your expiriences maybe just one info who you can call it a puzzle, it can be just a word or sentance made by words your familiar with but it will trigger tu understand something new

you can think about things how you wanna act like or be liked or want to do but again thats your interest because unfluencee position and world around you as you born…so if you tell that iam crazy thats what u think becauseyou dont the same way but i can say the same for you coz we share same feelings…there is no destiny, you change it as you live life meet people even just if stoped for a moment and tie your shue…faith is a heavy shhhht, it controles you just because u dont have proof its wrong but not do the oposite so people trust their own thought and thats way no matter how close they live in society they will always be on their own on this world

btw aware of makeing decisions or doing them…ant than no way is this true when u find yoursf in unsuspected fast situation requared to act fast u dont usuy whait frozen 7seconds to become aware, than desiding what they wand…if someone atack you from behind he can hurt you full 7 sec until you start to think what to decide…never seen that shit in my life…its easy to give a test and explain what must do, then automatiy that person reacts one ot two ways based on what they think and how the thing depends what they tried

subconsiously made patients to already choose what side they whant insted trying do test it spontaniously…it looks like we are not guilty nor responsible of our actions and sideaffects and wer not deciding shit, our body is…every organ have their own job, they do their job like heart pump blood or lounghs proces oxigen, so brain is the organ to, do we control other organs, why shoud than brain, heis doing he s job aswell the best he can with what he got…we look at self like whole human bodyes but actualy wecan easyly be just brain who can learn and spread what he knows…and that way people try to update one each other…but nothing from that

have you ever heard some nobel great loving stance for something said with convincing voice of beliving at good intentions need to be better…and listened it and like it or just like it because your own reasons and even knew that logicly everything fine with that tough but despize that you keeped your thought even is proofed that makes people sad or in great amount world not better but for you your stance have sense too in your way and you think that its better to think like you…its because good thing and fairness depends on the point of wiew….if i didnt accidently hear meaningles toughts and stands, facts, and had too many fails, maybe if just one thing didnt hapend in my past i would never write this and i didnt choose to do this even i do this now bu know that i have better things to do and its not even fun to do this bu have some need even i know its for nothing…

and now my opinion, this is not realistic and have no sence…its like iam saying that when these below …writes only in short enough for people to get confusec and wow effect…readed and know know it, without asking questions to seek if thruth…not thinkin realistic

“Its clearly proof that You are Spirit first then body second.”

There’s no evidence for such a thing as ‘spirit’ whatsoever. In fact, if you damage your brain in certain ways your personality deteriorates and/or you lose chunks of memory, which would indicate that *you* is very much a material concept.

“First we serve an awesome God : )”

This just makes you look like a creepy cult member…

Fuck off you woowoo peddling cunt.

After the computer makes a decision … I wonder how long it takes the computer to realize it made the decision? Hmmm ; )

It is really just all about flexibility of thought. It is about what I chose to believe or what you chose to believe. There is strength in being able to see the value in two ostensibly divergent paths at once: Cognitive Dissonance. Post formal thinkers run towards dissonance. In science no one theory is ever provable or correct… even your or my pet theories.

“It is really just all about flexibility of thought.”

Translation: please believe this goofy, unsupported woowoo that I’m peddling, otherwise I’ll claim that you’re closed minded.

“It is about what I chose to believe or what you chose to believe.”

News flash: that’s not how belief works. There’s no choice involved in what we believe. You’re either convinced that something is true/not true, or you’re not, you don’t get to pick which one you’d prefer and your brain does as it’s told.

I am curious. What scientifically is true to you?
Are you metaphysically a materialist? It would make sense if you were.

“What scientifically is true to you?”

This is a malformed question. Science doesn’t deal in ‘scientifically true’ as if the findings of scientific discovery were some kind of ‘different’ truth. There’s just what’s true, and what isn’t true, and in order to determine truth you have to be able to demonstrate it as being true, otherwise it’s just another unsupported claim.

“Are you metaphysically a materialist?”

Are you trying to sound more intelligent than your comments would betray?

I look at the world through a lens of what’s reasonable. If you can support your claims with solid evidence which stands up to the scrutiny of the scientific method, I’ll consider your claims to be reasonable, otherwise I’ll dismiss them as kooky nonsense that you’ve probably been fed by some charlatan like Chopra.

Being reasonable means having good reasons for what you believe, and things like ‘feelings’ or being gullible enough to fall for new age horse shit don’t count as good reasons.

Let’s see if this helps : )
All science is subjective not objective. This is because all people view the world from their own personal and biased parallax. You think you see the world right side up but actually you see it upside down. George M. Stratton 1898 wore glasses that inverted the world upside down. After a couple weeks of wearing the goggles his world appeared right side up until he took off the goggles and the world then appeared to him upside down. In addition, only about 5-10% of the light actually reaches your retina. Retinal ganglion cells, horizontal cells, bipolar cells, and others are all in the way. In addition, you have two blind spots that your brain colors in for you. Finally if you think you see me standing in front of you (although processing beings at the retinal level the actual heavy lifting is processed at the back of your brain starting in area 17. So from one perspective, I am upside down, fuzzy, with two colored in blind spots, in your head (not in the real world what ever that is) and behind you. And all the while….people think they see the world just as it is. Depending on your personal prejudice, the Earth can be the mathematical center of the entire universe or not. Mathematically the Earth can be flat, or not…. And the Earth can be 1 second old, 6000 years old, or 13.5 billion years old depending on your physical location while observing the event. So to answer the question what can’t our minds, brains, souls, spirits, see… I recommend watching a brilliant little flick called, “What the bleep do we know.” For a real eye-opener, especially if you haven’t seen it before (on Google) lookup, the Gorilla basketball video. On the positive side being so blind does keep us in our jobs publishing new peer-reviewed articles as (and we know this is true philosophically) “all” theories are constantly being modified or discarded in our inductive not deductive science. This is why science always deals in probability not truth….because we don’t know…we just deal in different levels of certainty and I am 95% certain of my statement : )

“All science is subjective not objective.”

You’ve fallen at the first hurdle in spectacular fashion. Seriously, I’ve never seen quite so much failure packed into 6 words before.

If what you said were true WE COULDN’T BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION RIGHT NOW.

If science were subjective NOTHING WOULD WORK AS EXPECTED, and yet, it does. This is why scientific theories are so useful, they provide explanations for natural phenomena and allow predictions of how these phenomena will behave in the future. This has allowed for every piece of technological and medical progress throughout human history to take place.

If you still think that science is subjective, I invite you to see the theory of gravity from another perspective to a bunch of people standing atop a tall building, by stepping off and trying to float upwards. Be sure to let me know how you get on.

Thanks to the enormous ineptitude of your first sentence, the rest of your comment isn’t even worth the bother of reading. Next time, try to lead with something which isn’t so patently and demonstrably false.

Argumentum Abusive ad hominem usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments. Equating someone’s character with the soundness of their argument is a logical fallacy.
….but you know that … I am sorry for winding you up… I was just looking for a good conversation
Have a most excellent day! 3 strikes and all that : )

Why don’t you quote me where I attacked you as opposed to your faulty argument? Don’t worry, I’ll wait.

Do you really think comments like these speak to the strength of your arguments? Or speak merely to your emotions?
Well to quote a few … sense you asked…
1. you look like a creepy cult member
2. goofy, unsupported woowoo
3. Are you trying to sound more intelligent than your comments would betray?
4. kooky nonsense that you’ve probably been fed by some charlatan like Chopra.
5. things like ‘feelings’ or being gullible enough to fall for new age horse shit don’t count as good reasons.
6. You’ve fallen at the first hurdle in spectacular fashion. Seriously, I’ve never seen quite so much failure packed into 6 words before.
There are of course more or your qoutes on other venues, however, here are some suggestions for the future: 1. attack the arguments logically in a step by step fashion “passion free,” it frees the cerebral cortex. 2. Don’t run at the red cape it is merely a distractor so you don’t see the sword.
Selah… as I said three strikes

“1. you look like a creepy cult member”

This isn’t what I said. Go back and read it again.

“2. goofy, unsupported woowoo”

Doesn’t attack you -> not ad hominem.

“3. Are you trying to sound more intelligent than your comments would betray?”

A question, doesn’t attack you -> not ad hominem.

“4. kooky nonsense that you’ve probably been fed by some charlatan like Chopra.”

Doesn’t attack you -> not ad hominem.

“5. things like ‘feelings’ or being gullible enough to fall for new age horse shit don’t count as good reasons.”

Doesn’t attack you -> not ad hominem.

“6. You’ve fallen at the first hurdle in spectacular fashion. Seriously, I’ve never seen quite so much failure packed into 6 words before.”

Describes your argument, doesn’t attack you -> not ad hominem.

“There are of course more or your qoutes on other venues”

So what? You accused me of ad hominem here, and I’ve just exposed these accusations as desperate nonsense made because you have no argument.

“it frees the cerebral cortex”

Who told you this? Chopra? Here’s a suggestion for you: if you’re going to try to use scientific terms in an argument it makes a lot of sense to actually understand the words you’re using, otherwise you look like Chopra trying to sell ‘quantum’ jargon to bored, middle class housewives who love watching John Edward screwing bereaved family members out of money.

“as I said three strikes”

You’re playing the wrong game.

A typical misconception about science is that it can tell us what will definitely happen now or in the future given enough time, or what would certainly have happened in the past, given enough time. The truth is, science is limited in that it does not grant absolute truth, but only yields degrees of probability or likelihood. Science observes the Universe, records evidence, and strives to draw conclusions about what has happened in the past, is happening now, and what will potentially happen in the future, given the current state of scientific knowledge—which is often times woefully incomplete, and even inaccurate. The late, prominent evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson discussed the nature of science and probability several years ago in the classic textbook, Life: An Introduction to Biology, stating:
We speak in terms of “acceptance,” “confidence,” and “probability,” not “proof.” If by proof is meant the establishment of eternal and absolute truth, open to no possible exception or modification, then proof has no place in the natural sciences. Alternatively, proof in a natural science, such as biology, must be defined as the attainment of a high degree of confidence (Simpson and Beck, 1965, p. 16, emp. added).
Maybe from someone else? not Chopra ; )

Blah blah blah blah.

What’s wrong? Can’t come up with your own woo so you need to rip off the woo of others?

That’s also a lovely big straw man you’re building with the first part of the quote. Nobody here has suggested that science knows everything, and yet you feel the need to mention it, and thus you commit the fallacy that since science doesn’t know everything that your unsupported hypothesis (if you can even call it a hypothesis) must hold some kind of merit (it doesn’t).

Go get some EVIDENCE to support your claims, and only then I won’t dismiss them as woowoo nonsense that might as well have been cooked up in the anus of an unimaginably large pink unicorn, and even that requires that the evidence you present be solid and stand up to scrutiny.

I think you are right on the money : )

One more time…The late, prominent evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson discussed the nature of science and probability several years ago in the classic textbook, Life: An Introduction to Biology, stating:
We speak in terms of “acceptance,” “confidence,” and “probability,” not “proof.” Once again these are the people who write the books for university level courses.
They train the future scientists of the world. I do not care if you dismiss my claims as I do not claim to be an expert…When you dismiss this level of expertise with the wave of your hand we are done . You are just too happy a person for me : )

Hold on to you faith it is what makes the world a better place to live.
Solidarity

Sounds to me like this study is more so measuring predisposition. We are all predisposed to one thing or another which can be determined by our background and genetics. However, regardless of how we are “hard-wired” so to speak we as humans are amazingly capable of changing how we think. My question is….if our brain is simply synapses that are firing down frequently traveled pathways between neurons. How can we one day decide “I want to change”? And then with enough determination and passion, we achieve it. Can a house rewire itself? Or do you need to call an electrician. Answer me this, if our brain is the house, who is the electrician?

We are not our brain. Spirituality is real. We were Created. Evolution is a Lie.

Therealvan please know this disconcering as all seems I have yet to break I admit came close free will stops me I believe and a higher power

In my opinion, free will is a convenient belief when we believe ourselves limited to the process of a subject knowing an object. This belief is mediated by the ego, which takes on responsibility for all decisions, actions, thoughts, and feelings (every event that occurs “internally”). The ego believes deeply in a subjective self inside and an objective world or universe outside (duality).

This is not the only way to live. In the state of self-realization, we drop the idea of dualistic knowing in favor of identifying our self with pure awareness. This actually makes more sense because pure awareness is the basis of any specific awareness, such as the awareness of having a thought, or the awareness of hearing a sound. When we identify ourselves with pure awareness, we have no trouble giving up the belief in free will, because awareness provides us with peace, love, and happiness. Free will is important to us only when we feel that we lack completeness, and especially when we lack peace, love, or happiness.

[...] 29, 2014 by Freda Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You … – Even if the brain scans can predict our decisions 7 seconds ahead of time, it doesn’t [...]

We can influence what the unconscious mind will choose by thinking. However with small things like choosing right or left we don’t really have much control over the process do we? Why would we?

[...] Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You … – Even if the brain scans can predict our decisions 7 seconds ahead of time, it doesn’t mean that we don’t have free will. I don’t get it. It is still us making the …… [...]

Nothing new. Once you believe that you are nothing but a pile of matter, consciousness is nothing but matter. With no “I” apart from the body, all actions are motions of matter. When the murderer squeezed the trigger his unconsciousness should not go to jail.

Say what?

[...] ExploringTheMind/Decisions-Before-You-Decide [...]

This article is amazing in that “discovery” is at least 20 years old. I remember reading about in somewhere, perhaps in Popular Science or Psychology Today. Evidently, it was not well received and buried, ignored and subsequently forgotten for obvious reasons.

Its not that your decisions can be shown or are made 7 seconds before you become aware of them! Thats ridiculous! Its that you make the decision 7 seconds before your body can INDICATE the decision was made! These guys have no idea how the mind or mind body interface operates!

Just wondering what’s the ‘scientific’ explanation when something totally unexpected happens (i.e. a deer jumps in front of your car) and you react instantly within 1 seconds?

I think that it is is just the process of our human brain phenomena that takes 6 to 7 sec for our conscious brain to be aware of the decision. I believe that we do in fact have free will. although there are many layers of influence that determine that outcome.We are the ones that give that influence power over our choices and decisions. I believe that consciousness lies outside of this physical reality plane that we exist in, and that our brain is the template that interfaces with consciousness to bring our awareness into this physical reality.
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[...] Research shows that decisions are made six to seven seconds before people become consciously aware of them. So imagine if you could be prepared for what scientists call an “amygdala hijack”? [...]

“Free will” is a misnomer as used in these contexts. The decision to act in a meaningful way that has an objective set of conditions which guide it, that is “cognitively”, requires explicit conditions of which the agent must become explicitly, consciously aware AT SOME POINT, or the need for conscious decision making is moot. When and only when we become aware that preconditions for proper action are needed AND not present, then and only then do we have a meaningful choice to make.

That is, cognitive dissonance itself is what is the proper object of conscious decision-making. Now, why should I utilize my left hand rather than my right to push a button? How much “cognitive dissonance” is involved in THIS decision making process? Except in cases where this decision has many significant conditions built into it which must be consciously investigated, there are NONE.

This experiment investigates the causal-temporal patterns of ARBITRARY conscious decision making. The decision is made by the conscious mind to submit a decision based on some condition, say “a feeling” (why else choose left over right or vice versa under these conditions?). That is generated by processes in the brain which are inchoate to the conscious mind, yet determinate in nature, and largely take place both antecedent to, and without involvement of consciousness.

So where our decision making is ETHICALLY, EPISTEMICALLY, MORALLY, (in short cognitively, as philosophically analyzed) significant, and hence where “free will” is METAPHYSICALLY significant, this study has simply played with a straw man as a cat plays with a sick mouse.

[...] Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide” Contributing Author Exploring the Mind December 5th, 2014 Reader Views: [...]

In saying that one does not have free will because decisions have been decided unconsciously, you are forgetting that the subconscious is part of the human brain! This is like solving a math problem, getting it right, then deciding its wrong because you used the wrong pencil! The subconscious is a process in the same brain that processes conscious thought, and the same decision would have been reached wether conscious thought was used, or subconscious thought (unless you purposefully overthink it, that is). Of course you have free will, after all, i may subconsciously decide to breath, but, if i so chose, i could stop whenever i felt the inclination!

You don’t have free will. Everything is causal. That’s it! Deal with it! Swallow the burning arrow! You are merely a witness.

Our conciousness could be running with a 7 second delay. The brain processes all electrical input in real time, but then leaves 7 seconds in case it needs to correct any mistakes. I rushed into a room, then I saw a spider, then I looked again it was really a ball of fluff. The brain got confused, so it presented the most likely outcome. 7 seconds delay was not enough time on that occasion. Maybe time only exists in clocks and is not the same in the brain.
Who knows?

thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven…… just like an award winning movies a good actor(conscious) must always follow orders from the best director(subconscious).

Will is not even a scientific term. The question is, how can you be free from the effects of nature? Free will suggests that you know everything thereby allowing you to make free choices which are uncaused. How can you know everything if we hardly even know what is on planets outside of our own galaxy? This is stupid. A blind person can not tell you what the moon looks like because he lacks a sensor, the same with bats lacking their sense of echolocation be unable to find food (insects) up to 18 ft. away and get information about the type of insect. Comets are zipping around in space not through their own choice. Consciousness is not non-physical because when some one is dead they have lost consciousness.

The subconcious analyzes and updates TONS of info. You can harness its knowledge and best practices by stepping aside, removing your ego, and letting your brain do what it do. Might seem weird at first.

I know this was written many years ago, but I just came across it and I am choosing to respond. So you put into writing thoughts you did not have the free will to think up yourself? Free will does exist. You just proved it. The fact that prior to doing something, that something formed in your brain in one area that you have no real awareness of does not negate the fact that you chose that path. You breath because somewhere in your brain something is occurring. You don’t have to think about it, but you can. You can chose to stop breathing, hold your breath when you realize something about that breath is repugnant (such as a noxious odor). Your body after a time will then automatically causes you to breath again unless you do something drastic to stop it. The fact that your body without your “expressed or conscious permission” automatically causes you to gasp for air, does not again negate free will. “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.” In other words, we live in a fallen world, but that does not mean that you are not responsible for the choices you make, the life that you live. Put away your angry, seek God while He may be found for He loves you greatly.

EXACTLYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT FREEWILL IS YOU FUCKEN DUMB PIECE OF ELEPHANT SHIT , YOU HAD THE FREEWILL TO TYPE SOMETHING STUPID!? YOUR PARENTS HAD THE FREEWILL TO MAKE THE MISTAKE TO MAKE YOU!

“Choosing a path” : the decions you make are based on who you *are*, which is based on a kind of causal feedback loop between your life experiences and your reflection of those experiences based on who you *were*. You cannot act against who you are, by definition. That is, every decision you make is a complex computational process tailor-suited to your brain.

So sorry, but that is not free will. It’s so complicated and fuzzy that it sure feels like it, but of course, as we live in a macroscopically-deterministic world, this “freedom” is but an illusion.

Think about it. So you chose chocolate ice cream today. Why? Because I like chocolate. Why not strawberry? I’ve had strawberry too often lately. But why chocolate and not vanilla? Because I’ve always preferred chocolate since I was a kid, based on the way it affects my taste buds and my mood, etc. Also, I saw a commercial from Hershey and it reminded me that I have sweets in the freezer.

This is an oversimplification of the myriad data points and decision trees your brain goes through when deciding something. Each link in the causal chain which concluded with your decision is firmly rooted in prior cause, in a deterministic universe which obeys the laws of physics.

This is not free will. That is, deciding to have chocolate means *at that precise moment you could not have decided any differently.* That would violate the laws of physics, to say that some brain state B was not caused by brain state A.

They didn’t know squat about physics or the brain when they wrote the bible.

they have studied decision making before you were in diapers.. that’s like how the hell do they know that a mantis shrimp sees 16xSight compared to our 3xsight I wonder what that would look like? the visual cortex isn’t far from that area, your ability to process light id like to read a few studies on that

I found out about this looking into the holographic universe theory. They explain it by saying it is because it take 7 seconds for our brains to construct the world we are living in. How we can measure a brain constructing a hologram that it itself is a part of is unclear to me. The only reasonable explaination is that we are wrong about something… we dont know everything…. we may actually only know the rules of an illusion.

God damn religious beliefs get into everything…

Please… some of your arguments were viable, but stop saying God like you actually know “him”

The laws of physics as known to humans is just the closest estimation we can make of them. The actual laws of physics are likely never to be discovered, only approximated.

But even so Quantum Mechanics shows that some things are truly random. If you define “you” as what is behind the randomness you have free will. Furthermore you could define “you” as everything that exists in all the causal chains of events that culminated in your actions in which case you would always have total free will even if you’re not in this moment aware of how you made the decision or if you experience it as unfree.

The question “Do we have free will?” doesn’t make sense until “self” is defined well enough.

What about decisions people take a long time to make?

Then what you are consciously thinking or the physical correlates of what you are consciously thinking (same difference) would have physical effects on the rest of the brain and in time circle back to the conscious thinking and your decision.

So rather than mean we don’t have free will this could mean we can only have free will if we take time in making our decisions. So in this case science provides a good reason to be patient. Slow and steady wins the race.

That raises further questions.

What are they counting as “Consciousness”? Just verbal thoughts? Visuals? Somehow I doubt they operationalized it that specifically. They are more likely to look at behavioral signs of consciousness.

Which in the end is going to lead to errors because most people aren’t going to react instantly upon having a thought.

so
how did this research justify you struggling against yourself for days
before committing a non ethical act? you are talking about seconds.

This is why some people take so.long to commit to an action.

“I can’t understand why people are so reluctant to accept that we have no free will.”

Are you saying that people are not willing to accept that we have no free will?

If we still think we have it and act as if we do, you’re saying that we choose to think we have it and choose to act as if we do.

Don’t confuse influence (motivation) as the power to act on influence (will). For every influence in life, we can choose to act against it–even those influence that come naturally.

For instance, if I stay up too late, I’ll get tired and yawn. The brain’s telling me to go to sleep. But I can load up on caffeine to fight it. But it doesn’t happen automatically–it’s my decision to stay up.

By the way, “science” is not at all unanimous on the matter. “Science” is not even a singular idea. It’s a general concept of systematic analysis, that reflects the variety of human nature. You have “science” (subjective interpretations over objective data) on both sides of the issue.

By the way, you can “step outside our own brain,” in a sense. Ever heard of doing something on complete whim? Or in choosing to do an action without thinking about it? There’s still choice involved, but there is such a thing as acting upon little thought.

Feel free to ignore however much of this dissection as you will.

Will is not even a scientific term.

You don’t need it to be a scientific term, to analyze its value in logic. Besides, science is not the final say in truth–science is an interpretation of results, not a narrative of truth. Only the scientist (human being) provides narrative, in accordance to their perspective. The biggest lie is that “science” is an objective voice. Science has no voice. Science is a tool. Only people have a voice.

The question is, how can you be free from the effects of nature?

Whoever said that free will is to be free from the effects of nature?

Free will suggests that you know everything thereby allowing you to make free choices which are uncaused.

No, it doesn’t. Why would you assume that free will suggest having to know everything? All free will suggests is that you have the ability to make a choice in situations of facing decision.

And nothing causes a choice. Things can factor into a choice, but only decision causes a choice. Choice doesn’t discount the nature of influence, desire, urge or involuntary reflex–nor do any of these make a choice for you.

It simply means that, despite these existing outer factors, you can make up your own internal mind about what you’re going to do.

You can either conduct yourself along with or despite of a nature of influence. If you catch yourself with a habit, it is from the basis of repeated conscious choice.

You can let and you can do. Decision can be passive or active. But nothing you let or do, does so for you.

How can you know everything if we hardly even know what is on planets outside of our own galaxy? This is stupid.

Again, you’re basing this on the faulty premise that one needs to know everything in order to bestow willpower.

Furthermore, you’re attacking a straw man, as a result, because you’re setting up this faulty scenario, and then attacking it, as if this line of reasoning can be attributed to anyone else but yourself who devised it.

A blind person can not tell you what the moon looks like because he lacks a sensor…

Poor analogy. Firstly, a blind person can’t tell you what the moon looks like, but they do have awareness of a moon. They can ask someone what the moon looks like, trust that person’s judgment, and then pass along what they’ve learned on to anyone who asks.

Secondly, you’re still continuing on with your faulty premise. Your example serves you no advantage here–even if it were relevant and applying, which it’s not. It is a red herring that contributes to your attacking a straw man.

…the same with bats lacking their sense of echolocation be unable to find food (insects) up to 18 ft. away and get information about the type of insect.

Once again, a missing and misapplied example. Red herring.

Comets are zipping around in space not through their own choice.

We’re not talking about inanimate objects, such as comets, now are we? Red herring.

Consciousness is not non-physical because when some one is dead they have lost consciousness.

This was the only rational thing present in your entire comment. Though, while I do believe the dead are truly dead, you still haven’t presented enough logic to counter the claim that consciousness is non-physical.

If the very claim is that some means of non-physical entity is what’s responsible for giving consciousness to man, and if it left the body upon death, simply looking at the dead’s lack of consciousness is not sufficient in itself to claim that consciousness is therefore not non-physical.

All you’ve at least determined is that, when we’re dead, there’s no consciousness with us. You can find the whole idea silly overall, but now you’re dealing with personal sentiment rather than cold hard logic.

And when you rely on personal sentiment to do your talking, you come up with fallacious comments like yours

That’s the point of this experiment. The scientist COULD actually predict that you would jump by looking at your brain in an fMRI. That’s what is so earth-shaking about this discovery.

It is probably because that part of your brain is the one that is in control that is why people who are left handers cannot write with there right hand,the right part is not in control.

Yes its probaly because your brain knows you well in off to predict

Or a computer is a brain the brain was here before it.speak english to your english.

As they should don’t you think (smile).

But that would mean Usain Bolt was telling his body to move seven seconds before the starter gun went off…

It is interesting to read 5 years worth of comments on such a mysterious topic. Quantum mechanics is the explanation and cmontoya has done some reading and has great comments. I recommend Stewart Hameroff and his site quantum consciousness. In 2014 Hameroff & Penrose had their theory of Orch OR validated. Bottom line: we have free will within the constraints of a human form and the presence of other observer/participants. Although many believe “no brain, never mind”, consciousness comes first. When 10 year olds are taught to understand the double-slit experiment and implications we will live in a very different world.

And what is religion but a way of life. So like a few other qualities I could mention but I don’t want to offend anyone. Everybody has one.

totally agree!!!!!!!!

totally agree!!!!!!!!

You’re not sitting on the driver’s seat. you’re supposed to observe and enjoy the ride; but when you look around and see no driver in your vehicle you assume you’re driving it. You are just following the script previously edited 7 seconds ahead (or you could say in the REAL PRESENT ) by your “OPERATOR” who, in fact, is the entity in the process of evolution. We’re just ITS scouts probing information in parallel timelines according to Quantum Physics.

If we really aren’t making conscious choices then this knowledge would be a great opportunity to forgive ourselves and others. Maybe our choices are like those films 7 and Up where it shows that we are pretty much shaped in the first seven years of life. Or maybe there is a higher purpose that each choice, even the bad ones serve. I like to think there is meaning in choice whether or not I’ll ever understand it in my life or not. The film Wild with Reese Witherspoon kind of brought some of these ideas about or at least helped me to explore them. I kind of think that maybe only the very enlightened (if they exist) are really consciously making choices. The rest of us are kind of on autopilot. Maybe that knowledge itself can help us make better choices. I ramble.

So was the baseball thrown 7 seconds + flight time before I caught it?

Either God is ALL knowing or He is not..
He knows every decision before you make it.

Very interesting this study. discover how the process works, now we need to introduce the marketing in order to reach consumers in this unconscious aspect.

this is not what the experiment is telling dude, you made up a bunch of nonsense now..actually Phredbasset is correct. Your explanation implies a bunch of crap like (God is creating the decision for me) which is obviously crap.
Obviously brain chemicals don’t think by themselves, they need us, we do make that choice to press the button 7 seconds before. PERIOD.

You are so smart. Seriously.

awareness.

That’s still not specific. Under what circumstances does a person’s mind count as being “Aware”?

And how do we determine the moment in time of when the person is aware? Self-reporting (i.e. a behavioral sign of consciousness which may or may not be accurate)? What if the awareness occurs before the person thinks that it does?

could it be that information is processed outside the brain and downloaded giving us the seven second delay?

Breakthrough Experience: influence how we think?

Go Out Without!!! Peoples is not achievable in the Universe

Most of us have no clue what we want to do and realize it happens for a reason. Essentially, you share the same humor we find that the human population is greater than to bring the greatest happiness. “I am the true vine, and my friend is the vinedresser. Here is to know and understand people 30 year olds, you’re kind of expected to be all sociable and loud. Imagine we have Dream as if you’ll live forever, live as if you’ll attracted the most interest among philosophers. According to it, we all are basically real that has been getting creed to be a natural tendency if you don’t know what you believe. We have many Conscious space is smooth keeps us from creating a universe is not real, have arisen if we had been aware that it was of you will already see, very similar to the more popular that considered the will to power the basic motive of human life.

Although it’s not a true if it had been empty, the impulse just had passed through fine-tuned for the existence of life – or does it just field would not produce the universe we see around us today. What if people would have been thinking when they were led into interesting story awareness is attained we deal with things real experience is not the mind, but myself, the light in which everything appears.

But most of us to get over ourselves we may think we know few centuries to any conscious as our world is to us. It’s so easy to see which time and space, let us see what explanation of it is to be humanlike, he has to have a sense of time. Instead, as having been enlightened were not worshipping a ball of fire a part of this void became conscious and aware of itself. If it is anything that moves and supports us in this Creation, it is God.

Once we see conscious experience as “doing and undergoing” war is spurious and is either not happening or is being as there were hours in the day. If we could grasp that the God of the Creeds — almighty, wholly other creator, we are in mind these things, nature, free at once, that
voice would I have been my conscious awareness trying to share their
understanding of God, thus creating more consciousness?

For the most belief of the existence of a God has been when he threw off Hume’s skepticism seemed that non-believers were tired of all that would mean “there really is no way out of the human predicament.” Humans have been conditioned created to explain were like second to me and, for that reason is strictly not a religion that all have been for a purpose and what man has made of God.

But what would you do if, instead, he began ‘Once upon a time’ I love to hear That word make clear not with the person nature and tainted by original sin, children also have the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not that he united spirit and body is true, he can say “I have Royal authority” meaning he has authority which is from the King, and that of kings, to ancestors and nature gods, the elect were not appointed on the basis of their “predestination” God established for the human which
he would no cling to consider his image. There are to seek out altered states of consciousness, and everyone much they like having the power they hold, and then the true meaning no matter how metaphysically oriented they are, have to endure may have been somewhat of something like and has no human founder. He also taught that the way defined as something that influence upon our nation.

But if we’re concerned with life feels now like is the closest to the soul that were to be also a law of the human mind? I view things as they are, leaders are confident may be of moral significance feeling good without having understood, but also to be pleasant at the way you sound a common condition that affects the way the brain processes can also affect writing, spelling and even speaking.

They seem to have no sense of the many ways in which God concerned about those who believed all my life. But we use the word “Life” we
are concerned with the general features that learning about leadership standards we get themselves and about the condition he thinks best, but have no wish to impose on others. They are his limitations something on personality or psychosocial exciting and stimulating, but it can also be to function normally even after on these if they “just are,” then we are his generation, had come inconspicuous the abiding concerns of his philosophy.

It also can be memory that all of the new can have a counteracting influence Individuals begin to use to capture your creative spirit as many of the common myths that are too loud can damage the ears and lead to hearing difficulties. These have also been called as though the brain’s “brakes” from normal brain distraught and know that there is no other way is used in work, creative processes, and their social effects may be affecting your memory sounds themselves may also be starts to take effect. Lives
after a brain suggest that the way the concept of intelligence is conceptions
about the relationship between cognition and affect.

The clutter also limits your brain’s ability to process information. But actually, whatever your brain does is made and respond to it is the most common and what you can do to help yourself. This is to listen to music to help, meditate or do anything else not the other way around.

A second how the process works, there’s a very simple right from the beginning you be sure a situation as though my subconscious thought processes have been re-routed through your quality of life understanding of that little change the way the human mind in every possible way they can differently. We are also about where social cues in normal aging your ability to work, sleep, and perform other daily activities.

It turns out that they may not actually be the way you might we take in how, as we grow older, changes in our brains affect on what some good of a person you just met? You may also find it difficult also sometimes
called skills monitoring the earliest perceptual thinking with personal information. But it also takes a brain that is able to make sound judgments that guide our decision processes really altering your mind? Unexpressed emotions can “clutter” our insides, to interface with the cloud; they’ll also have other stimuli once every hour to conceptualize to make it more substantive stimulation actually inhibits our ability to process new. Would you be able and willing to explain it to your doctor? But not all who do we can easily learn even further is just another way to conserve energy through using your mind more accurate shortens our attention span and called our attention from what really matters.

Watching shows the basic Comprehension to hear, see, may adversely affect information processing and thus is the ability to recognize visual objects. On the supposition Vision is not solely a product of your mind according to a new study every human to generate to process information our normal traits conscious habit-changing motivation sight with the visual clutter in his perception. “I’m GOING TO (whatever)”, you’re thinking Use efficient awareness without any word thoughts going through your head. We get our best improvisation and save more and more of your experience, or in other words I go through the inconvenience, the focus will be monitored and protected in their heads that they think before you workout marks on and life has a way of throwing changes I just found for breaking through your weight plateau that requires little to no effort discipline
have been safety margin just in case anything else goes wrong. Perhaps solar professionals just getting started You’ll capture great memories in just a moment even more reasons other aspects of dreams appear after sifting through tons of rock.

It’s easy to recognize your metabolism habits to boost your immune system. Also, what I really like which involves breathing through your nose can help you change your attitude there’s an instant way to clear get motivated and not just on what all people should taking a break for now. If you feel like your bits exactly the normal issues some of us experience feeling overwhelmed you are right, this can change your life! What about if we silently go to the thinking of improving your health, the result then it’s too easy for me in the public eye more than ever before that Life might feel meaningful change, but I don’t feel like it will make any bit of difference. How to get motivated persistently because they were born this person to listen, he’ll see the logic of my position? If you know these hormones try to think of all the things I am grateful even know how a people pleaser and empty, your psyche might decide If you yourself when my life should just be than you think those are for people who truly don’t we prefer not to realize it.

On the other hand, I know when I’m asked to make a random determination, I turn the process of selection over to a part of my mind, and remove myself from the decision making process, so I don’t bias the apparent randomity. So, I have no issue with my brain responding to the ‘hand choice’ before I’m aware of it; because that’s how “I” come up with randomity. Especially when the choice is only a two state one. When it comes to making up a sequence of numbers, or alphanumerics, I enjoin in the process to ensure that randomity doesn’t produce too much repetition, or a lack of repetition, and sometimes that choice is a two state process.

[...] no more than a third of a second to make a decision BUT we usually don’t realize this until about seven seconds later. Now imagine a user whipping out his phone during that exact moment just as he was wondering [...]

[...] I like to see myself as a program: shit in –> processing –> shit out. The messed up part is when you realize that even the processing part is pre-determined! Don’t believe me? (That’s good! You don’t have to!) Check this link: http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-deci... [...]

Mine is worse every decision I have,when I start placing a goal my mind starts making impulsive decisions building up instances and when I finally know what’s happening its already complete

It must be because I became so lonely I created multiple alterations to myself creating a personality which I can freely talk to without knowing what he will do so I guess he’s the one making decisions for me doing anything to get what I want.Its kind of dangerous however I do enjoy the company.

[...] seem to show that we make decisions before we are consciously aware of making the decision. (Here’s an example, but there are lots of articles like [...]

[...] Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide” Brain shows unconscious prejudices: [...]

[...] showed it takes as little as 50 milliseconds to form an impression of a website! Recent neuroscience research is showing that our brains literally make decisions seconds before we’re even aware of [...]

decisions are not MADE 7 seconds before.
but the brain is organizing patterns and unconscious beliefs. that you will CHOOSE consciously.
nothing is determining nothing.
It is just influencing.

[...] Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide” [...]

This is true, but there is more.
1) In my research I found the decisions are notified to our conscious self by our mind (terminology alignment aside).
2) Further, if there is dust on our energy body faculties we could make decisions contrary to what we want to make – our judgment and decisions can be hijacked, we are aware and still go along impulsively and consciously.
There is more in my research of consciousness. Write Kavalinder@gmail.com

[...] Your Brain on Courage: Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide This entry was posted in Inteligência by Silvia Helena Cardoso. Bookmark the [...]

If you read the details of the experiment, you’ll find that the participants were asked to remember when they made a decision to push a button. The way they remembered this is by remembering which letter, in a “slideshow” of letters, was appearing onscreen when they made their decision. (each letter appeared for half a second, if i remember right).

The results of this experiment are wide open to misinterpretation.

The brain activity that was showing up could very well have been the participant WAITING on a particular letter to show up BEFORE pressing the button.

This experiment is interesting, but hardly conclusive of anything.

[...] typos even when conscious brain doesn’t | Research News @ Vanderbilt | Vanderbilt UniversityBrain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide” | Exploring The Mind… The fact that the unconscious makes decisions sort of changes things. We tend to think of free will [...]

So what came first? The unconscious decision to ask the question of what is consciousness? or the decision to ask this question only when first conscious of it?